The use of Negative Reinforcement as a Management-method at the Arvato Microsoft Scandinavian Product Activation in Liverpool.

The use of Negative Reinforcement as a Management-method at the Arvato Microsoft Scandinavian Product Activation in Liverpool.
Messages 1 - 16 of 16



Message 1 - posted by johncons, 2 Days Ago

When I was working at the Arvato Microsoft Scandinavian Product Activation in Liverpool, I had a meeting with one of the team-leaders on the campaign.

I was wondering why we, (I was working as a regular Contact Centre Representative there), and I was wondering why we got lines like 'NN, you're on wrap-up', shouted at us across the tables, from the team-leaders.

Then I got to hear that this was something that the team-leaders had been thought during team-leader training.

The team-leader I was in the meeting with, told me, that they had been trained using '[negative] reinforcement', during the team-leader training.

She explained to me, that she wouldn't stop with the shouting/complaining/'giving stick', the way she did, because this was the way they had been trained to lead the campaign.

Here is a quote from the summary from this meeting:

'I also brought up the situation with the wrap-up meeting we had some weeks earlier, where
we agreed on that I would work on gradually bettering the wrap-up time, but that she then
forgot this agreement, and the next day acted like this meeting hadnt been taking place
at all, and continued to shout 'You're on wrap-up' if the wrap-up time exceeded 5 seconds.

Vivian explained that this was call reinforcement, and that the team-leaders were trained
to use reinforcement as a way of solving problems, like the problem with agents being
to long time on wrap-up between the calls. So she wouldnt stop doing this, because she
had been trained to do her job this way.


NEGATIVE REINFORCEMENT

I hadnt heard about reinforcement on the management/organisation modules I had studied on
upper secondary and university-level, and neighter had I heard about it on the management-
courses I had participated on while I was working as a manager in Norway.

So when I got home on the day we had the meeting, I searched for 'reinforcement' on the
internet. I found from how Vivian described it in the meeting, that this way of sorting
problems was called 'negative reinforcement'.

I couldnt find very much on how this was being used in management, but from what I found
it seemed like it was more used as a way of training dogs, and that it was known to make
the dogs nervous.

Line says that they were told to do it this way, because if they did it this way, then the agents
would do the job the way the team-leaders wanted.'.

Link: johncons-mirror.blog...


My issue, regarding this, was that when I was searching on the term 'negative reinforcement', on the internet, then it mostly appeared links that had to do with the training of animals, like dogs and horses. (And not so much with management-theory):

Link: www.google.co.uk/sea...


And, the fact that the team-leaders are screaming things like 'You're on wrap-up', to the CCR representatives.

I think this is a bit impolite, because the places were people are seated, are up to the region of 5-10 meters from were the team-leader is sitting shouting.

So I remember I myself thought this practice was a bit inpolite towards the representatives.

And also, I thought it was interfering in the work.

That is, if one are sitting, and writing some notes, or if one are loging the latest call.

The latest call from when someone has called in to activate Windows or Office etc.

Then one had five seconds to log the call and to prepare for the next call.

So sometimes one ran out of time, and sometimes, one also wanted to have a zip of water inbetween the calls, so sometimes five seconds could be maybe a bit to little time.

But the point is, that when the call wasn't a regular call. That is, if the call lasted for longer than about five minutes, then one had to log the call on a form as well as on the screen.

And if it was a company-call, a Microsoft customer, then it could be that one had to write some notes down, since these calls sometimes were a bit more complex than the regular calls.

And also since there was a lot of types of agreements, like Select-agreement, Open-agreement, etc.

There were meny combinations of different agreements and products, so sometimes, one happened to write down some notes, and also send e-mails to the line-managers about the activation.

So if one were busy doing things like this, then I think the shouting was sometimes interfering a bit with the other work.

Because, often, it wouldn't be possible to do work-tasks like this, while one were answering the next call simultaniously.

Because one needed to consentrate on the loging and the writing og notes and e-mails.

So then it interfered a bit when someone shouted at me: 'Erik, you're on wrap-up'. At least I remember that I thought this personally.

Because then I lost my concentration, and my awarenes of what I was doing. And I sometimes got a bit stressed, and I maybe started thinking about things regarding the organisation of the campaign instead.

And I also think that this practice is a bit condescend.

That is, from the team-leader to the representative. It seems to me, that one are shouting like this, then it means that one thinks that the representative isn't using his time in a meaningful way. That is, it means that the representative is doing something wrong.

I tried telling them, that we knew from before, that the wrap-up time was five seconds, and that they didn't really need to shout that out, because we already knew this from before.

And when one used more time than five seconds, it was because it was needed to finish the work-tasks.

But when they were shouting, then I think it means that they didn't belive the representative would be able to manage the time for the work-tasks themselves, in a reasonble way.

So then I guess it means that the representatives was looked at as to be thoughtless and without the ability to act reasonable.

I thought this meant that the representatives, were looked down upon, in regards to the issue of being able to manage their own work-time in a meaningful way.

So I myself, remember, that I was thinking that this practice was a bit condescend.

I used to work as a store-manager in Norway, and in conection with that, I had a few courses in practical management etc.

And I also had some modules in management and organisation, from upper secondary school level, and also from university level.

But I can't remember, that we were taught were much about 'negative reinforcement' in those modules and couses.

So I was wondering if someone maybe had some knowledge, regarding where negative reinforcement fits in, in relation to the management-theory field.

I think that management is an interesting field, so I think it would be very fine if someone have the time to contribute a bit to the thread on this.

I myself, think that this management-method, can maybe sometimes seem a bit harassing, but I think it would be very interesting to also hear what other people think about this.





Message 2 - posted by Alan Amp**, Yesterday

Dear John, What the heck are you talking about ?
Your problem seems to be that you have a very shallow knowledge of your subject and have not grasped the Nettle as they say.. We want more in depth analysis on the matter from you . Please come back when you can do this.

Message 3 - posted by CanveyCove**, Yesterday

A/A, you could ask him to speak simple English.

Message 4 - posted by johncons, Yesterday

Ok I'll try to summarise it shortly:

It's like if you have a boss at work, and you're working with answering phone-calls.

And, your boss is yelling at you (through the room), that your phone is on wrap-up, and that you have to start answering the calls again, since the five seconds has passed (since the last call).

This, regardless, on if you are doing a worktask that needs to be done, in the meantime.

And the managers are trained to do this, and the method, is call 'negative reinforcement'.

So I was wondering were one could find more about 'negative reinforcement', in conection with management.

Because, when I searched on the internet, I could almost only find it in connection with the training of animals, like dogs and horses.

So, I was wondering if anyone knew, where 'negative reinforcement', fittet in, when it comes to the field of management theory.

Since I havn't heard about this method (negative reinforcement), in the management/organisation mudules at had at school and uni-level.

And they didn't teach about 'negative reinforcement' on the courses in practical management etc., that I participated on, when I was working as a store manager in Norway.

So I was wondering if anyone knew more about the use of 'negative reinfocement' in management?

I haven't lived that long in Britain, so it's possible that I've done a lot of spelling mistakes etc.

But please just ask if there is anything that needs to be made more clear, and I'll try to explain as good as I can.



Message 5 - posted by Rob***, Yesterday

Probably!

Message 6 - posted by CanveyCove**, Yesterday

This is like me playing music, the right notes, for above put words, but seem to be in the wrong order. Where did you learn English? Not here.

Message 7 - posted by hywel, Yesterday

I think you mean punishment and not negative reinforcement. Negative reinforcement is when I tie an iron ball to the talon of my pigeon and remove it only when he has pecked all the crumbs from my magnificent beard.

Message 8 - posted by pompomwhiting**, Yesterday

Perhaps the N.H.S. wasn't so bad after all.

Pom thinks that I.T. personel deserve their big wage and will not be tempted to go on a course.

Message 9 - posted by johncons, Yesterday

I think you mean punishment and not negative reinforcement. Negative reinforcement is when I tie an iron ball to the talon of my pigeon and remove it only when he has pecked all the crumbs from my magnificent beard.

Quoted from this message



Well couldn't this be similar with that they shout at the representatives, and only stop, when they answer the phones within five seconds?

At least the team-leader in the meeting, refered to it as reinforcement, which they had learned at team-leader training.

Message 10 - posted by johncons, Yesterday

This is like me playing music, the right notes, for above put words, but seem to be in the wrong order. Where did you learn English? Not here.

Quoted from this message



Well it's a bit of topic I guess, but since I've started explaining about it, it's from school in Norway, summer school in England, uni. in Sunderland and work in Liverpool.

Message 11 - posted by johncons, Yesterday

Perhaps the N.H.S. wasn't so bad after all.

Pom thinks that I.T. personel deserve their big wage and will not be tempted to go on a course.

Quoted from this message



Well, it was a minimum wage job, at around £5 an hour.

Message 12 - posted by Devon_Dumpling, Yesterday

John, I'm a team leader in a call centre down south.
If I treated my crew like that they'd be gone within minutes. I'll carry on treating the like normal people, works wonders

Message 13 - posted by johncons, Yesterday

I've checked the pay now by the way.

Just so that I'm not saying anything wrong here.

It was 5.25/hour as Randstad employee, and 5.85/hour as Arvato staff.

(Randstad staff could get paid for working over-time, but for Arvato staff only interflex).

(Just so that I'm not writing anything wrong, because I don't know exactly to the nearest pence, what the minimum-wage is at the moment. And I guess this pay is really a bit above minimum-wage, so I thought I'd try to write it accurate. The figures are by the way from last year).

Message 14 - posted by PlainAshington, Yesterday

Why didn't you just say it was agency work and you got shouted at for not grafting beyond the humanly possible?

Perfectly normal in the British work place.


wik.ed.uiuc.edu/inde...

Message 15 - posted by hywel, Yesterday

At least the team-leader in the meeting, refered to it as reinforcement, which they had learned at team-leader training.

Quoted from this message



Well the 'team leader' was using the word incorrectly. This team leader training sounds pretty cowboyish. No management theory would advocate this kind of behaviour. It is bullying and illegal.

Message 16 - posted by johncons, 17 Hours Ago

At least the team-leader in the meeting, refered to it as reinforcement, which they had learned at team-leader training.


Well the 'team leader' was using the word incorrectly. This team leader training sounds pretty cowboyish. No management theory would advocate this kind of behaviour. It is bullying and illegal.

Quoted from this message



I was in contact, with the Merseyside Police, about these problems, and other problems, which seems clear to me are harassment, in January.

But the police just sent me on to the CAB, who sent me on to a solicitor, who didn't accept founding from the 'legal aid scheme'.

And another law-firm, canceled a duty solicitors meeting, regarding advice about the legal aid scheme.

And I've sent complaints to the Law Society, I've contacted the LCS, but they had some problems finding the e-mails in their e-mail system.

I've complained about how the Merseyside Police has been dealing with the case, to the ipcc.

The Merseyside Police, declined to investigate, so I sent an appeal, which has been upheld, to the ipcc.

And I've also contact a few organisations, and the Norwegian Consulate in Liverpool, the Norwegian Embassy, the Norwegian Special Police, 'Kripos', since this case seems to be linked with an organised crime case, which the Norwegian Embassy, has adviced me to contact the police in Britain and Norway about, if I want them to cooperate on the case. (Which I've done).

But I haven't managed to get much progress on the case.

Some of the documents for the case, are on a blog, in connection with a complaint sent to the CAB:

johncons-mirror.blog...

The documents, can be found, in the folders: 'Enclosures 1-25', 'Enclosure A-B', 'Enclosure I-XII', 'Enclosure new1-new8' and in the file 'Explanation CAB'.

The files can be found, in the menu, a bit down, on the right side of the screen, in the blog.

The file, from this thread, where the 'negative reinforcement' issue, and other issues are brought up, are in the file 'enclosure 7'.

This enclosure, was also included, in the files which I gave the police in January, but they told me it was an employement matter, and sent me to the CAB.

The CAB, and the legal firm, they set me up to meet in a duty solicitors meeting, failed to inform me, that the law firm, didn't accept founding from the 'legal aid' scheme, so this problem, that the law firm didn't accept this founding, made me send a complaint to the Law Society.

The Law Society, adviced me, that I should send a complaint through their complaint procedure, about this company, and another law-firm.

But now, many months later, it has been explained to me, that these companies, shouldn't have been complained about to the Law Society, they should have been complained about to the LCS, since the problems with poor service/unprofessional conduct etc, appeared in connection with the duty solicitor scheme.

So now I'm back to 'square one' again, so to speak, and I've been adviced, by the LCS, to contact Merseyside Employement Law, about the possibilities, to get help with bringing up the case, under the legal aid scheme.

So I've been sending Merseyside Employment Law, three e-mails, in the last couple of weeks, but I haven't managed to get a reply from them yet.

But what I was wondering about, was, if you know any smart way, for me to explain, to the law-firm, like in a summary in an e-mail etc., how I should explain to them, about this problem with the use of negative reinforcement etc., discussed in this thread.

Do you know any smart way, in which one could summarise this, in the context, on eg. which laws that are breached, and how to explain the practice that I described as 'negative reinforcement'.

Is it just called bullying? And you would coincidentaly know how I could explain, to the law company, about how the pracsis breached the laws, in a way that would make the law company understand what I'm meaning, in an easy to grasp way?

I think it would be very fine if someone has some advice on this, and also if anyone have some advice, on how I should go forward with case.

So thanks very much for any help in regards to this!